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Re: Religion Thread

Post by The Dude on Tue 5 Jul 2011 - 2:29

Good luck with that.

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Re: Religion Thread

Post by iliander on Tue 5 Jul 2011 - 2:42

Why?
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by spangopola on Tue 5 Jul 2011 - 3:45

= = Such ironic.

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Re: Religion Thread

Post by iliander on Tue 5 Jul 2011 - 3:46

They also tell about the ikannuna. Razz
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Religion is the Ultimate Propoganda

Post by dietermoreno on Sat 3 Aug 2013 - 13:23

From what people have told me what they've seen when they've died and come back, I think there might be an after life, but I think its definately differently different than religion and it is a scientific phenomenon that the ancients used Gods to explain because they didn't understand it and we still use Gods to explain the afterlife because we still don't understand it.


I think religion was invented to control people. People are afraid that if they don't believe they will go to Hell they would rather be safe than sorry, and thus they are bound by the rules of organized religion, and thus if the organized religion tells them to do something they must do it in fear of going to Hell.
I think whoever invented religion would make a good totalitarian dictator.
It scares me that many people invented religion it shows how controlling so many people are.


I used to believe because of fear because I'd rather be safe than sorry, but I'm not afraid anymore and I see organized religion for what it is which is control and brain washing and I'm not afraid of organized religion anymore because I'm not afraid of going to Hell anymore so I can't be controlled anymore.


For example: Do you really think your going to go to Hell because you eat beef on Friday's during Lent? So then do you think that everyone is going to Hell who aren't Christians?
The real reason for the fish nonsense: boost fish sales during the slow winter months to help the Italian economy.  Advertising at its finest.
The bible is the ultimate advertisement.


For example: Do you really think your going to Heaven because you have went to confession for murdering?
For example: Do you really think your going to Hell because you are homosexual?
The real reason: Its control to reenforce homophobicism.
For example: Do you really think your going to Hell if you have sex before marriage?
The real reason: The Romans had a tax on marriages and wanted more revenue.
So did everyone go to Hell before marriage existed?


For example: Do you really think your going to Hell if you don't pray every day?
The real reason: Let me blame all my problems on someone else so I don't have to take care of them so I can make more money so you can collect more taxes from me.
The common theme: Money.
When has it ever not been about money?


Do you really think God would want you to be so lazy to ask him to solve all of your problems even if He did exist? I don't think He would. I think he would prefer for you to solve your own problems. Everyone is religious only until they don't need to be anymore. Everyone only prays when they pray for a new job or a new car or a wife or a son or an illness to go way or whatever. No one ever prays when everything is going fine. Why is that?, its because people are lazy.


Why would anyone give a shit about your poor miserable life? Your government sure doesn't, and organized religion cares about as much as you as your unrepresentative republic.
Translation for those too brainwashed who think their government is their to help them: organized religion only sees dollars, not souls, but dollars.
That's right, organized religion only sees money, not you.


Why would anyone be able to get a spot guaranteed in Heaven just because they tithed?
If I am told by the church that my expected yearly tithe percentage is 10%, and when I don't comply everyone looks at me and is pissed off at me and I never come back, how is that faith? That's not faith to me, its only a business. Funny thing is, that was a so called non denominational church.


The problem isn't the denomination, the problem is religion itself.
Now if we look at what is faith, we find that faith is defined as hope.
Faith is like Old Faithful geyser, there is hope that it always errupts.


Now if we look at what is hope, we find that hope is defined in the dictionary as: hope (hp) v. hoped, hop·ing, hopes v.intr. 1. To wish for something with expectation of its fulfillment. 2. Archaic To have confidence; trust. v.tr. 1. To look forward to with confidence or expectation: We hope that our children will be successful. 2. To expect and desire. See Synonyms at expect. n.


So essentially, hope is believing in something with no proof.
So therefore, faith is essentially believing in something with no proof.
Therefore, there is no proof of Gods.
*QED*.
So you still want to believe just to be sure because you'd rather be safe than sorry, okay, but you are given rules to obey to control you to put you in even more fear by tapping off of that fear.
Still, when they're no proof, I think you'd be better not believing to be rather safe than sorry.


I used to be afraid of a God because I'd rather be safe than sorry, but now I've come to my senses and seen that its all a ruse and I think with no proof I'd rather be safe than sorry to not believe and be safe rather than be sorry by being under the control of all the rules of organized religion to the agenda of the organized religion as mindless slaves of the organized religion making you religious only when you need to be but mindless slaves to the system always.


Why should I know hope when its not gunna happen? They're no proof, so why should I believe? I can hope for friends, and it hasn't been anymore effective than praying for friends, because its actually the same thing as hope is the same thing as faith which is blindly waiting for something to solve your problems for you.


I'm not saying to stop believing in yourself, but I'm saying to set realistic goals for yourself and not hope and pray blindly.
You can still live a positive life of believing in yourself, but with realism in the negative walk of your negative mind.


Religion tells you to change. Why should I change for anyone other than myself?
This is a good question. I used to change for everyone else except myself because I'd rather be safe than sorry because I was afraid and I didn't know what else to do.
I wanted friends so I joined football and I worked out to get better at football because I wanted friends.
I did enjoy football, but that's not the reason I played it.


The reason I played football was to make friends.
I did enjoy working out, but that's not the reason I played it.
The reason I worked out was to make friends.
Don't you see the flawed logic? If you change for anyone else other than yourself your living your life backwards?
Now why would anyone want to live their life this way?
Most people live their whole lives like this in exile of themselves!
Why would anyone do that?
They do that because of fear.


Why would anyone want to live their lives in fear?
I tried out for the college football team in fear that I would have no friends if I didn't.
I didn't make it and I feared I would never have any friends.
I didn't have any friends in high school or my first 3 years of college.
they were all fake trying to be something they were not because they were afraid and they were being cautious.
you should still be cautious, be not controlled by hope or faith.


You know yourself, but you don't know God or the Devil. The God or Devil you know is better than one you don't, is it not?
You should still be cautious, but not controlled by hope or faith or anyone other than yourself.
End of rant.
My message must be spread to as many people as possible so they don't make the same mistakes I made.


I know most of you probably won't read any of this because most of you don't give a fuck, but I give a fuck so if you give a fuck then I'm hear to help you.
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Pepp on Sat 3 Aug 2013 - 18:58

TL;DR

For me religion is a weapon of stronger, more powerful groups to put doctrines to the people.

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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Mandos on Sat 3 Aug 2013 - 21:49

dietermoreno wrote:I think religion was invented to control people.
You don't say...?
The main problem with religion is that there's too much of it, too different. Even Catholic Christianity is different from Orthodox Christianity which means that when they are contradicting each other none is right. Put Christianity against any other religion in the same context and no religion in the world is right, they are all fairy tales and crap.

Religion is something inevitable for a young, intelligent specie. We think too much and we can't explain things and so we give credit to superior forces. But now we're getting smarter and we have science and so religion is starting to be questioned and as a response religion went from a "we share the word of God on how everyone should live like and if you don't listen we burn you on a stake and send you to hell!" point, to a "religion is a way to live a better and more calmed life, to love your fellow men and such" point. Basically religion is now all about love and tolerance, but if we look back on the crusades, they were anything but love and tolerance.

Religion sees its being threatened and judged especially for its past and has changed a lot recently, trying to make its dark past forgotten, but as history has thought us, we forgive but we never forget.
So open your eyes!


Last edited by Mandos on Sun 4 Aug 2013 - 5:03; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by AOE_Fan on Sat 3 Aug 2013 - 22:06

There are two types of people which I dislike when talking about religion:
1. People who don't respect the people or ideas of religion X.
2. People belonging to religion X who don't respect people not belonging to that religion.

Religions should try to evolve and modernize to maintain their popularity in everyday lives and be more about actions rather than theories. Judging different religions is also hard because it's not like every Lutheran, Muslim or Catholic thinks the same. This is the main problem of religions, in order for them to "work" ideally, they should be more closed and local environments. This reflects to my view of same sex marriages in a Lutheran country: Churches and Priests themselves should decide whether they allow them or not. But even then the reality kicks in and there's always a certain group who is against any kind of changes, sadly.
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by peugeot407 on Sun 4 Aug 2013 - 3:03

Somebody who claims the crusades were an example of religious violence lacks, in my opinion, a considerably more significant part of the brain than somebody who believes that God has forbidden premarital sex or some other guideline-turned-law, and believe me, I reserve a passionate loathing for the latter category...


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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 4 Aug 2013 - 4:17

Religion is an invaluable preserving source of cultural art and collective wisdom. When it separates from that and embraces force and law, it becomes a tool for very tragic ends. Religion is a way to better reconcile the human psyche to the world we live in, not a free ticket out of it for either its practitioners or the people killed in its name. That's where you run into issues.
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Mandos on Sun 4 Aug 2013 - 11:59

Alright, scrap the crusades, they were all political and shit (yeah, right...), what about all of those people burned on stakes, crucified and murdered in the name of God? Some for being witches, others for being possessed, some for simply not believing in God.

What about those damned souls?

Want another example? JESUS CHRIST!!! The way humanz treated him, what does that say about religion and how it is used?
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Even on Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 15:18

I agree with Synecdoche... And what he said is actually quite relevant to Mandos' comment

Its only when religion is in the moral, metaphysical dimension, when it becomes significant. When religion is rife with unnecessary formalities, and ingrained in political entities, then it will be a dangerous asset which oppose the humanity for which it was created...

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Re: Religion Thread

Post by The Dude on Fri 9 Aug 2013 - 16:02

what about all of those people burned on stakes, crucified and murdered in the name of God? Some for being witches, others for being possessed, some for simply not believing in God.

What about those damned souls?

Want another example? JESUS CHRIST!!! The way humanz treated him, what does that say about religion and how it is used?
It shows only that most men are intolerant of each other. Most religions don't actively promote violence, and most violence and conflict comes from man abusing religion. Religion may be used for great good, it may also be manipulated for evil, unfortunately. But then again, so can most insinuations, nationalism, and other ideologies.

Really, all of what you just said means then men are blood thirsty creatures, and that's about it. Religion benefits mankind, because it usually promotes more non-violent approaches to resolving conflict, however the problem is most large organized religions have a tendency to get corrupt, which is why the Catholic Church doesn't have nearly as much power as it did a few centuries ago.


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Re: Religion Thread

Post by peugeot407 on Sat 10 Aug 2013 - 2:16

(...) it may also be manipulated for evil, unfortunately. But then again, so can (...) nationalism (...)
I assume you mean patriotism? Nationalism is inherently violent...


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Re: Religion Thread

Post by The Dude on Sat 10 Aug 2013 - 3:01

Depends on your definition of nationalism, the the lines between being a patriot, and a nationalist are fairly skewed.

Although, I would say that nationalism is a more violent, and extremist form of patriotism.

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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Synecdoche on Sat 10 Aug 2013 - 8:32

Nationalism is more often a sanitized excuse for ethnocentrism and race war than any other ideology.
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by peugeot407 on Sat 10 Aug 2013 - 10:32

To put it a Shakespearean way: Patriotism begets Nationalism, and Nationalism begets Fascism.


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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Golden Dragon on Sun 10 Nov 2013 - 14:32

Joining on this thread to clear a few major misconceptions about Hinduism and for some other religious views I would like to present:-

Polytheism
Spoiler:
It's actually not a polytheistic religion as much of the world and sadly a majority of Hindus believe. It started of as a monotheistic one with the Supreme God being called the 'Brahmana" (and not Brahmin). After then, as I have read the holy texts, owing to the Universal Tolerance principle of The Rig Veda it started incorporating the local religions and slowly we had ...well a few thousand deities. In the Bhagvad Gita, Krishna(another name for the Supreme deity according to the Vaishnavite sect) does mention that they are all actually the same god represented in different forms. Looks like my forefathers were interested in making out specialisations Very Happy .

Then as mentioned with the diversification of gods people started worshiping one or two major ones and started to believe that they were the Supreme Deity not realising that they were worshiping the same one.
So at this point Hinduism changed from being monotheistic to semi polytheistic as Paco the Great mentioned. Since outsiders adhering to other religions like Islam , Christianity and Judaism didn't understand it quite well and given the misconceptions of our own people it was labelled Polytheistic. Although one of the major advantages of this is that school children got lot of holidays. Very Happy

The pick and mix quote of peugeot also justifies this point. Also this is due to the Universal Principle of Tolerance that many communities found safe asylum in the Indian subcontinent albeit with lesser difficulties and violence like Jews and followers of Zoroastrianism. This doesn't mean I am glorifying my religion as I really hate some concepts.

Idol Worship, Animism,Caste System and Ban on Cow Meat

Spoiler:
Hinduism ,since it is about 10000 years old,like most religions of that time originated out of people's belief of a higher power which controls their lives. This also lead to a respect for Nature as a whole and thus you find many Animism concepts in Hinduism. This was also integrated with the great philosophical knowledge of the Ascetics and Saints and that is what I believe made Hinduism a bit different from Animism

Originally Hindus weren't forbidden to eat any kind of meat but seeing that the Cow produced many useful things that were used(and are still used. Ex- Dung for fuel, Milk, Butter, Clarified Butter(Ghee),etc), out of respect for this creature a ban was initiated and that's why any Hindu who eats cow meat is looked upon by disgust and this is what happened with the Shudras the lowest caste in the caste hierarchy .

The Caste System was originally a merit based system and was divided like this:-
1.) Brahmins - Those who can master Sanskrit(the language of the Vedas and by default the holy language.) and perform holy rituals and the task of teachers in different areas.( Now mastering Sanskrit is very hard and given the low literacy of the people they would be like scientific celebrities like Farady and Humphrey of their age.)

2.)Kshatriyas - Those who trained in the Way of the Warrior and Shastravidya. They were the protectors and the lords.

3.)Vaishyas- The traders and merchants who were responsible for the economy.

4.)Shudras :- These were the guys with no talents and helped out with the meagre tasks of day to day life.

And the greatest thing was that any body could become any one of these depending on their merit. It is clearly mentioned in the Rig Veda(the first and the holiest of the Vedas) that "Everybody is born a Shudra". But the some of the Brahmins & Kshatriyas were clever and made the system hereditary and thus sadly destroying a great system. It's results can be seen now and although slowly India is abandoning the system.

Shudras were considered untouchables after this major change and since they are exempt from the law of not eating Beef(which is optional for them) it increased their oppression.
A General View on Religions

Spoiler:
I respect every religion out there since I believe that it is the belief of the people which moves the Wheels of a Civilisation but I do hate some aspects of every one of them including mine.
The Dude: wrote:It shows only that most men are intolerant of each other. Most religions don't actively promote violence, and most violence and conflict comes from man abusing religion. Religion may be used for great good, it may also be manipulated for evil, unfortunately. But then again, so can most insinuations, nationalism, and other ideologies.

Really, all of what you just said means then men are blood thirsty creatures, and that's about it. Religion benefits mankind, because it usually promotes more non-violent approaches to resolving conflict, however the problem is most large organized religions have a tendency to get corrupt, which is why the Catholic Church doesn't have nearly as much power as it did a few centuries ago
Synechdoche wrote:Religion is an invaluable preserving source of cultural art and collective wisdom. When it separates from that and embraces force and law, it becomes a tool for very tragic ends. Religion is a way to better reconcile the human psyche to the world we live in, not a free ticket out of it for either its practitioners or the people killed in its name. That's where you run into issues.

AOE_Fan wrote:Religions should try to evolve and modernize to maintain their popularity in everyday lives and be more about actions rather than theories. Judging different religions is also hard because it's not like every Lutheran, Muslim or Catholic thinks the same. This is the main problem of religions, in order for them to "work" ideally, they should be more closed and local environments. This reflects to my view of same sex marriages in a Lutheran country: Churches and Priests themselves should decide whether they allow them or not. But even then the reality kicks in and there's always a certain group who is against any kind of changes, sadly.
These words are really true my friends and as Pepp said before
it has been used as a weapon of stronger, more powerful groups to put doctrines to the people. You do not force people to live a life according to your rules. They must be able to choose thei own preferences.

Religion has been used as a powerful tool by many leaders to motivate people to some other cause like nationalism or personal profits. This has seen the rise of terrorism in the name of Religion. Of course the whole world has seen terrorism in the name of Islam and its sad after effect on the innocent Muslim people. Being a proud inhabitant of one of the most major multicultural country it is sad to say that I have witnessed multicultural terrorism also. We have terrorists operating in the name of Hinduism(Blasts of Malegaon) , Islam(Lashkar-e-Taiba, Indian Mujaheddin and some others), Christianity(Certain groups in North East region) and other brutal sense of Nationalism.

What disgusts me even more is the fact that it has become a fashion in Indian Politics to split out communal theories and all. This has led to massive rioting in the past.

As of Religious Leaders of the past like Jesus Christ, Krishna, Muhammad and all I have an atheist view that might offend everyone. But just for the sake of sharing I believe they were no miraculous people just some very clever people who knew how and when to play there cards. Seeing the recent scandals that have burst out on the so called Indian  Gurus(some of whom who went as far as proclaiming that they were some Avatar of Krishna) and the massive illiteracy rates of the past it has strengthened my viewpoint
.
I hope I have been able to be informative and please forgive me anyone who feels offended. It's just that I wanted to share my views with you. I will surely like to hear from you all.
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by peugeot407 on Sun 10 Nov 2013 - 20:55

It's funny you should mention illiteracy, as that's probably one of the most overlooked factors in religion there is. Both Christianity and Islam have made the step to translate their holy book into all sorts of languages now, but six hundred years ago, the vast majority of Christians didn't know Latin, the majority of Jews didn't know Hebrew (thanks to the diaspora), the majority of Hindus didn't know Sanskrit, and though a lot of Muslims did know Arabic, a lot of them also didn't, in the Balkans, Anatolia, Persia, India and the Malayas, so none of these people could actually read and interpret these scriptures for themselves, resulting in mass corruption and abuse of power across a lot of different religions in the world...


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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Golden Dragon on Sun 10 Nov 2013 - 23:01

It's funny you should mention illiteracy, as that's probably one of the most overlooked factors in religion there is. Both Christianity and Islam have made the step to translate their holy book into all sorts of languages now, but six hundred years ago, the vast majority of Christians didn't know Latin, the majority of Jews didn't know Hebrew (thanks to the diaspora), the majority of Hindus didn't know Sanskrit, and though a lot of Muslims did know Arabic, a lot of them also didn't, in the Balkans, Anatolia, Persia, India and the Malayas, so none of these people could actually read and interpret these scriptures for themselves, resulting in mass corruption and abuse of power across a lot of different religions in the world...
Exactly that is one of the most overlooked facts and due to the increase in literacy rates today we can see a major rise in atheism. The illiterate people in those days took it blindly as the word of god without questioning it's accuracy and sadly it is existent up to these days.

Let me tell you about an interesting and one of the most famous fact as an example. To begin with in a certain 'shloka' of the Rig Veda the practitioner pays respect to the sun. Now during the 14th and early 15th century a man named Sayana composes a commentary on the Rig Veda named 'Sayana Samhita' where he ,commenting on the specific shloka, mentions that the speed of light is 2202 'yojans' per 'ardhanimisha'. Yojan and Ardhanimisha are ancient units of distance and time whose definition can be found out from the Bhagvad Gita and the given speed of light roughly corresponds from 180000 miles/sec to 1950000 miles/sec. Given that light's speed is 186000 miles/sec and this discovery was probably 200 or 300 years before an experiment was made it was truly a marvelous yet untested achievement.

Now the Hindu Revivalist groups in the British Raj and also today use this to wrongly spread the idea that the Speed of light was defined in the Rig Veda. They have made their own commentaries of the Vedas corrupting the structure and fooling the people. Although this is one of the main reasons of survival of Hinduism but I believe people should know the truth. Also the lack of good Sanskrit knowing persons are decreasing day by day which has lead people to be fooled easily. Thus you get the so called modern Indian Gurus who make easy money out of innocent people. This has led to increased distrust and thus atheism among people.

Although I truly marvel the fact that there is a lot of good information in the Vedas but I am not ready to buy into the Origin of All Knowledge idea. Hindu texts other than the Vedas have been composed either some time after or after a certain time gap. These were in general aspects which were considered branches of knowledge in those dxays. For example Jyotishvidya is the study of Astronomy, Shastravidya is the study of martial arts etc. A lot of texts emerged as commentaries on them and we have now what you aptly justified as a pick and mix religion. But the core principle of the Vedas remain uncorrupted if only if you can interpret it the right way.

As my Grandpa(mind you he is an expert in Sanskrit) says, " There are 10 different ways to interpret the Vedas. It is upto you to find out the real way. The way revealed to you will be in accordance with the reflection of your character and mindset. To find out the real way you need to improve your karma and improve your character. Only the people with the highest morals are entrusted with the real way".

With all due respect I say "Spoken like an Indian Sadhu(ascetic and he is not one of them)". I have not been able to find the "Real Way" till now so can I request the WotTa guys to give me +1000 Karma and a great avatar. grinning 
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by peugeot407 on Mon 11 Nov 2013 - 4:05

Interesting... I do believe there's a lot of those people around though, who haven't become Atheist because they no longer believe in a god, but because they have become disillusioned with their religious institution. Thousands of people recently became "atheists" after the sex scandal in the Roman Catholic Church, not because they no longer believed in God, but because they no longer wanted to associate themselves with Catholicism...


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Re: Religion Thread

Post by ACN45trooper on Mon 11 Nov 2013 - 4:19

I call myself Catholic because I believe in God and in Jesus, and that's what being Catholic means, I don't feel any relation with those Vatican people, except from the Pope.
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Golden Dragon on Mon 11 Nov 2013 - 4:38

Exactly Peugeot looks like you and I agree on this.

ACN45Trooper : Yes of course I agree with your viewpoint. I am a Hindu and a Brahmin but I strongly disapprove many traditions and don't want to associate myself with them. Although as I mentioned before I do possess an atheist viewpoint about Jesus and religious leaders but as is the rule it differs from people to people.

The concept of having a Universal Religion is impossible according to me because there will always be one party or another who will try to sabotage the stage for personal gains.
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by ACN45trooper on Mon 11 Nov 2013 - 4:46

I never talk about an Universal Religion, but I agree on you, it's impossible, because everybody has a different point of view of religion and life. And the human being has being corrupted with an egoist mind, as you said
About my point of view, I don't disagree the traditions of my religion, but i'm not completely agree.
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Re: Religion Thread

Post by Golden Dragon on Mon 11 Nov 2013 - 4:49

Same here I don't disagree completely and that's why I said I'm 75% Hindu and 25% Atheist
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Re: Religion Thread

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