Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

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Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by dietermoreno on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 2:28

Is it possible to make a unit change weapon and tactics when put in melee mode?

For example: rifleman switches from rifle to pike when put in melee mode and switches from rifleman tactics to pikeman tactics.

Can we do it?

What I'm trying to do is make cavalry switch from pistol to sabre when put in melee mode.

I haven't got a clue what to do.

I want to change everything basically make a new game even more radical than NE 3.0 we'll show Tahattus for banning Dieter that Dieter doesn't need Tahattus and can do better than him, but I don't know how to do anything.

Thanks guys!
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by AOE_Fan on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 3:09

Well, units armed with bows don't use them as melee weapons, right? Just look at animfiles and you'll notice...
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by iliander on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 3:14

dietermoreno wrote:I want to change everything basically make a new game even more radical than NE 3.0 we'll show Tahattus for banning Dieter that Dieter doesn't need Tahattus and can do better than him, but I don't know how to do anything.
Don't follow his path.

Develop yourself.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by Mandos on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 3:15

dieter........................
That was all I had to say.
Now about your hate on Tahattus, he actually used you to bitch slap iliander.
Look http://wotta.com.br/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2616&start=140
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 4:00

Mandos, leave the drama at the door.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by dietermoreno on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 4:04

Haha that's so funny I just saw that picture that Tahattus posted.  Actually it wasn't there when I made this post I think.




AOE_Fan wrote:Well, units armed with bows don't use them as melee weapons, right? Just look at animfiles and you'll notice...

Thanks for response.  I know that obviously no one wants to do this other than me even if they knew how, this is why this is in the modding sub forum rather than the off topic sub forum.  This is for learning how to do it, even if you are opposed to making these changes (I'm talking to Mandos).

I wouldn't know because I've never used any units armed with bows in any game that I've played.

I'll look at the longbow man anim file and I'll play a game with the british and train longbow men and put them in melee and see what happens.





Edit:

So in longbow.xml I found the logic for specifying what weapon goes with melee mode.

Code:

   <anim>
      Volley_standing_attack
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\volley\longbow_volley_standing_fire</file>
         <tag type="Attack">0.98</tag>
         <tag type="SpecificSoundSet" checkvisible="1" set="Arrows">0.98</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="arrow_attachment" frombone="MASTER" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Volley_standing_bored
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\volley\longbow_volley_standing_boredA</file>
      </assetreference>
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\volley\longbow_volley_standing_boredB</file>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Volley_Walk
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\shared\walk_generic</file>
         <tag type="FootstepLeft" footprinttype="HumanLeft">0.14</tag>
         <tag type="FootstepRight" footprinttype="HumanRight">0.61</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Volley_Jog
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\shared\jog_generic_upper</file>
         <file>animation_library\shared\jog_generic_lower</file>
         <tag type="FootstepLeft" footprinttype="HumanLeft">0.60</tag>
         <tag type="FootstepRight" footprinttype="HumanRight">0.10</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Volley_Run
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\shared\run_generic_upper</file>
         <file>animation_library\shared\run_generic_lower</file>
         <tag type="FootstepLeft" footprinttype="HumanLeft">0.08</tag>
         <tag type="FootstepRight" footprinttype="HumanRight">0.60</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Defend_idle
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\defend\longbow_defend_combat_idle</file>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="sword" frombone="ATTACHPOINT" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Defend_bored
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\defend\longbow_defend_combat_idle</file>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="sword" frombone="ATTACHPOINT" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Charge_idle
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\charge\longbow_charge_idle</file>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="sword" frombone="ATTACHPOINT" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Charge_bored
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\volley\longbow_volley_standing_boredA</file>
      </assetreference>
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\volley\longbow_volley_standing_boredB</file>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="sword" frombone="ATTACHPOINT" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Charge_attack
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\defend\longbow_defend_melee_A</file>
         <tag type="Attack">0.52</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\defend\longbow_defend_melee_B</file>
         <tag type="Attack">0.27</tag>
         <tag type="SpecificSoundSet" checkvisible="1" set="Swoosh">0.21</tag>
         <tag type="SpecificSoundSet" checkvisible="1" set="Swoosh">0.56</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="sword" frombone="ATTACHPOINT" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Charge_walk
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\charge\longbow_charge_walk</file>
         <tag type="FootstepLeft" footprinttype="HumanLeft">0.60</tag>
         <tag type="FootstepRight" footprinttype="HumanRight">0.08</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="sword" frombone="ATTACHPOINT" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Charge_jog
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\charge\longbow_charge_jog</file>
         <tag type="FootstepLeft" footprinttype="HumanLeft">0.69</tag>
         <tag type="FootstepRight" footprinttype="HumanRight">0.15</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="sword" frombone="ATTACHPOINT" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>
   <anim>
      Charge_run
      <assetreference type="GrannyAnim">
         <file>animation_library\range\charge\longbow_charge_run</file>
         <tag type="FootstepLeft" footprinttype="HumanLeft">0.68</tag>
         <tag type="FootstepRight" footprinttype="HumanRight">0.13</tag>
      </assetreference>
      <component>ModelComp</component>
      <attach a="sword" frombone="ATTACHPOINT" tobone="Bip01 Prop2" syncanims="0"/>
   </anim>


I found this logic in archer.tactics   :

Code:

   <action>
      <name stringid="38135">MeleeHandAttack</name>
      <type>Attack</type>
      <maxrange>1.75</maxrange>
      <rate type="Unit">1.0 </rate>
      <attackaction>1</attackaction>
      <handlogic>1</handlogic>
      <speedboost>1</speedboost>
      <impacteffect>effects\impacts\melee</impacteffect>
      <anim>Charge_attack</anim>
      <idleanim>Charge_idle</idleanim>
      <impacteffect>effects\impacts\melee</impacteffect>
      <damage>6.5</damage>
      <rof>1.0</rof>
   </action>

So it appears that if you use put MeleeHandAttack in the name tag it allows you to put damage, range, and ROF that overrides the same stats in protoy.


For continuity, I looked at protoy here:

Code:

      <ProtoAction>
         <Name>DefendHandAttack</Name>
         <Damage>11.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Hand</DamageType>
         <ROF>1.500000</ROF>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractLightCavalry'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpEagleKnight'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractHeavyInfantry'>1.250000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>
      <ProtoAction>
         <Name>DefendRangedAttack</Name>
         <Damage>17.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Ranged</DamageType>
         <MinRange>2.000000</MinRange>
         <MaxRange>22.000000</MaxRange>
         <ROF>1.500000</ROF>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractLightCavalry'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpEagleKnight'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractHeavyInfantry'>1.250000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>
      <ProtoAction>
         <Name>MeleeHandAttack</Name>
         <Damage>11.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Hand</DamageType>
         <ROF>1.500000</ROF>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractLightCavalry'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpEagleKnight'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractHeavyInfantry'>1.250000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>
      <ProtoAction>
         <Name>StaggerHandAttack</Name>
         <Damage>11.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Hand</DamageType>
         <ROF>1.500000</ROF>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractLightCavalry'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpEagleKnight'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractHeavyInfantry'>1.250000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>
      <ProtoAction>
         <Name>StaggerRangedAttack</Name>
         <Damage>17.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Ranged</DamageType>
         <MinRange>2.000000</MinRange>
         <MaxRange>22.000000</MaxRange>
         <ROF>1.500000</ROF>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractLightCavalry'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpEagleKnight'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractHeavyInfantry'>1.250000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>
      <ProtoAction>
         <Name>VolleyHandAttack</Name>
         <Damage>11.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Hand</DamageType>
         <ROF>1.500000</ROF>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractLightCavalry'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpEagleKnight'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractHeavyInfantry'>1.250000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>
      <ProtoAction>
         <Name>VolleyRangedAttack</Name>
         <Damage>17.000000</Damage>
         <DamageType>Ranged</DamageType>
         <MinRange>2.000000</MinRange>
         <MaxRange>22.000000</MaxRange>
         <ROF>1.500000</ROF>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractLightCavalry'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='xpEagleKnight'>1.500000</DamageBonus>
         <DamageBonus type ='AbstractHeavyInfantry'>1.250000</DamageBonus>
      </ProtoAction>

Actually, it looks like tactics file doesn't override the stats in protoy, but tactics file references the stats to select in proty for the different protactions defined in protoy and it needs the tactics file to specify to look at those stats for the mode selected defined in the tactics file.

If I succeed at giving dragoon a sabre in melee mode (I will name the new unit green dragoon and give it to the british instead of dragoon), I think I will make a tutorial on this process.




Edit 2: Actually I just looked at the dragoon files and there it is it has a sabre in melee mode! Haha silly Dieter, no tutorial is needed because ES already did it and just look at what they did.

So technically if you always have advanced formations enabled you don't even need to waste pop on training melee cav when you can just have ranged cav that can go into melee mode, which is how it worked in real life -- no soldier in the 18th and 19th centuries was dumb enough to only carry melee weapons while on horse.




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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by AOE_Fan on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 5:22

@dietermoreno: Yes, you are correct but so lengthy post wasn't really necessary... Still, you need more than 1 type of cavalry because melee mode doesn't usually give different counters.

Mandos, deliberate off-topic posts aren't allowed and you definitely deserve two warnings for that. One more and you're out. Please, keep off-topicness in the Inn.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by dietermoreno on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 5:50

AOE_Fan wrote:@dietermoreno: Yes, you are correct but so lengthy post wasn't really necessary... Still, you need more than 1 type of cavalry because melee mode doesn't usually give different counters.

What exactly do you mean by "give different counters"?

Do you mean the bonus multipliers defined in protoy?

Well if you give the melee attack enough damage defined in protoy and defined in tactics, I don't think the bonus mulitpliers are even necessary.

If your unit can inflict more damage than the opponent's unit and each have all other stats equal, your unit wins. Simple as that.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 6:08

What he means is that units have similar counter capabilities in multiple fire modes because having a unit that defeats its main counter in equal circumstances (like a dragoon that has hussar-like power in melee) is a balance issue. It's ok if your unit performs better than in ranged, as the melee-mode dragoon already does against skirmishers, but you run into gameplay problems if the unit in question starts to really consistently defeat the units that are meant to kill it.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by dietermoreno on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 6:14

Well just don't give its melee mode too much damage then, simple as that.

My idea is that a dragoon charge is not effective against a line infantry in a rectangle, but it may be effective against line infantry with weakened lines to break a gaping whole in the lines and it is very effective against skirmishers.

The idea is that it is very effective against skirmishers by the dragoons shoot at the skirmishers while they approach and when they get really close they draw sabres and slash to death the skirmishers.

I'm not sure if The Patriot is historically accurate in depicting dragoons, but that is kind of how that movie depicted the british green dragoons in combat.

Well in that movie the dragoons never actually dismounted to fight on foot, even though Wikipedia says that originally dragoons dismounted to fight on foot.

However, the swamp fox guerillas being portrayed in the movie did dismount their horses, and the role of dismounting horses for them was to use stealth, at least in the movie. The swamp fox guerillas in the movie didn't use sabres because they were simple country men who enlisted in the militia and did not know the talent of sword fighting. Rather they rode with pistols and when on foot they used muskets.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by peugeot407 on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 7:28

I'm not sure if The Patriot is historically accurate (...)

If you're looking for historical accuracy, stay well clear of any films that have Mel Gibson in them. I don't know how the man acquired such a passionate hatred for the British/English, but he does a very poor job of hiding it.

As for dragoons, even during and after the Napoleonic Wars, when dragoons effectively just became a form of heavy cavalry, they would seldom charge line infantry in open battle. The whole point of non-lancer cavalry was to exploit weaknesses in the enemy line, not to create them.


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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by dietermoreno on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 8:43

Well I said that the dragoons would charge at weaknesses in the enemy line, not charge at a full strength line.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 7 Jul 2013 - 13:33

The current dragoons sort of already fill that purpose, they're good all-round units and can definitely beat equal-number armies of infantry (though not equal population usually). If you want to give a unit the possibility to defeat its counters you kind of have to maintain a real weakness. Knights in K&B, for example, are quite capable of hammering through an unmicroed line of spearmen as is historically accurate and worth the huge expense of fielding a number of heavy cavalry, but the Spearmen are given the "Shield Wall" formation to increase their micro benefits in melee (while weakening them against range units with a large speed hit) so that an attentive player can pull his spearmen into a forest of points and focus down enemy Knights if he notices the charge in time. This allows us to represent historically accurate battlefield tactics while giving a fun, new aspect to micro gameplay. I imagine if you puzzled it out enough mechanically you could represent musketeer squares and other, later tactics in a similar fashion through the Tactics files and such.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by dietermoreno on Mon 8 Jul 2013 - 4:32

Synecdoche wrote:I imagine if you puzzled it out enough mechanically you could represent musketeer squares and other, later tactics in a similar fashion through the Tactics files and such.

Do you know how to do that?  I want to do that!Very Happy 



Well today when I played as Confederates (my civ that I made which is really the American civ that Tahattus made and I converted it to Confederate), I did enough micro that I didn't even need to train hand cavalry.

Every time my riflemen were attacked by skirmishers I put them in melee mode and had a bayonet charge.

The Americans who I was playing against seem to like to send miners to attack, and bayonet charges also are very effective against miners.

Then when I went on a raid of the Yank town with 20 Texas Rangers and 15 sharpshooters (which I gave the sharpshooters more range, more LOS, more speed, and more damage at range when I made the Confederate civ), I left my sharpshooters in the rear to pick off troops from long range (it turns out the AI sucked too bad so my sharpshooters never had to fire a shot), and then used my Texas Rangers to fire at troops and then when troops eliminated I put them on melee mode to kill all of the villagers and then I burned down a town center and a few houses before retreating with 14 Texas Rangers left.

This was on a medium difficulty AI, I will next try to see if I can still do this microing against a hard difficulty AI.

Well also, I used cheats to age up fast because you have to age up to unlock each politician's units and I didn't want to raid until age 4.

Well for next time I will make every later politician enable the same units as its previous politician on its side (Yank or Dixie) so that I don't have to start from age 1 to have all the units enabled in age 4 so I don't have to cheat if all I want is age 4 to test out the microing with the formations.





Well back to dragoons dismounting, from what I read last night in a book called The Civil War Atlas, yes all regular cavalry then had both pistol and or carbine and sabre, but if was not common for regular cavalry to dismount, except sometimes they would dismount to take cover in trenches that infantry dug.

It was very common for irregular cavalry to dismount however. Irregular cavalry was not armed with sabres, rather they would use horses to ride quickly into position, then dismount with shotguns and stealthly approach an enemy convoy and then jump up and start firing at the enemy convoy and then run back to the horses and ride away before the enemy convoy knew what happened. A famous partisian unit that did this was called the Rangers, out of the Shenadona Valley of Virginia, on the Confederate side. The Confederates as they considered the war to be a Second American Revolution, they often adopted similar tactics to the partisians of the American Revolution, and these tactics would have been just as successful as they had been in the American Revolution had it not been for the railroads quickly bringing in troop reinforcements, and then an exasparated Union general ordered all houses burned down in a 5 mile radius of any partisian attack.

Hhm, well the game does already have the Texas Rangers, but I'm not sure if Texas Rangers was a partisian unit or if it was more of the state's regular cavalry. I will research the Texas Rangers.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by Synecdoche on Mon 8 Jul 2013 - 9:02

Well, it just requires some creative thinking, really. You can change unit formations with tactics, and stats as well, so if you want to make musketeers weak against cavalry when not in a square, take away their bonus against cavalry in hand-to-hand, and give them a formation called "square" that weakens them against other units (and musketeers not in square formation), perhaps moving them into a square formation, lowering their range and greatly lowering their speed but giving them a ranged damage multiplier against cavalry. More realistic already. Now, the coding knowhow required to actually pull that off isn't my forté, but it's entirely possible.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by dietermoreno on Mon 8 Jul 2013 - 9:36

Actually I wasn't even thinking of making them weak against cavalry when not in a square, but that would be more accurate.

Actually, musketeers already are given a stance such that when in volley mode when you select them and move them somewhere they form a square, and if you put them in defend move they will stay in a square.

I think I will try that in combat in my next game I play and see how effective it is.

I think a bonus against cavalry when in square is not necessary, because if cavalry come all I have to do is put them in melee mode, and they are already better off in a square than in a single line against cavalry because more bayonets are stabing at the cavalry.

Now that I think of it, I might even be able to make the front row be in melee mode and the second row fires and alternate them to melee mode while they reload. It requires no modding at all, just creativity.

Well so if now each row can alternate firing while one is reloading (which for what ever reason no mod has even considered), I can reduce the rate of fire slightly to 5.0 so bayonet charges become more important, which is historically accurate.

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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

Post by Synecdoche on Mon 8 Jul 2013 - 9:49

Alternating volleys are not messed with by mods because they're already used extensively in combat micro normally.

Changing the fire rate as you say is entirely possible, and actually an interesting idea! You'll want to be sure to keep roughly the same DPS to maintain balance, though, so keep that in mind.
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Re: Is it possible to make a unit change weapon when put in melee mode?

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