Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Tue 7 Feb 2012 - 0:03

That is the conclusion Razz .

No more speaking about Hussite thingy...

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Tue 7 Feb 2012 - 20:09

Hussite! Hussite! Hussite! :lol:

Back to topic, if the Welsh are covered by the English, what exactly will be the point of the Britons (mainly when it comes to units you can get from them)? If you haven't already decided on them, I've got a few ideas for techs and units (they're pretty hopeless though because I don't know much about the Dark Ages), if you end up making them somewhat based on the Welsh:

TECHS:
- Hunting Longbows: Vastly improves the ranged attack and range of citizens
- Ambush: Gives the stealth ability to all of your military units (if it is possible)
- Skirmishing Tactics: Infantry move around faster

UNITS:
- Helwyr (If it's possible, it could be a short ranged archer unit that has stealth and can gather only from huntables, or maybe it can just gather anything. If not, it could be a villager unit that is tougher and has a much better ranged attack and maybe can you have it gather from huntables faster or something like that?)
- Teulu (Mounted Retainers that are well armoured and if it is possible, are armed with javelins. Shorter range but more armour than normal horse archers)
- Welsh spearmen (needs an accurate name; faster but lighter armoured than normal spearmen, can use stealth)
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by iliander on Tue 7 Feb 2012 - 20:51

UNITS:
- Helwyr (If it's possible, it could be a short ranged archer unit that has stealth and can gather only from huntables, or maybe it can just gather anything. If not, it could be a villager unit that is tougher and has a much better ranged attack and maybe can you have it gather from huntables faster or something like that?)
- Teulu (Mounted Retainers that are well armoured and if it is possible, are armed with javelins. Shorter range but more armour than normal horse archers)
- Welsh spearmen (needs an accurate name; faster but lighter armoured than normal spearmen, can use stealth)

Helwyr: That's already going to be the Welsh sub-civ's unit. Wink
Teulu: These units are going to be unique unit for the English, acting as a ranged Light Cavalry.
Welsh Spearman: We're trying to limit the number of sub-civ units to 1 per sub-civ (or 2 in some cases). So there's no room for Welsh Spearmen.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Wed 8 Feb 2012 - 1:58

The Helwyr is indeed the unit for the Britons, and the Teulu a UU for the English. Welsh Spearman won't be in, partly because of the reason iliander gave, and partly because the name is too generic.


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Wed 8 Feb 2012 - 14:30

I hate generic names too, 'Welsh spearmen' was just a placeholder. What is the Helwyr going to be like? Also, what do you think of my tech ideas?

By the way, the Teulu isn't really a light cavalry unit - they were very similar to the Norman Knight actually, but with javelins.

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Sat 11 Feb 2012 - 0:00

That why we use Teulu. And Helwyr is Welsh's language of hunter or something like that, or ranger.

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Sat 11 Feb 2012 - 1:03

Whatever the linguistics, the Helwyr is an unarmoured foot archer.

The English will have three cavalry units, like most other civs, two of which are UUs. The Knight is the generic unit, the Teulu and Hobilar are the unique units. Normally, the three cavalry units behave like this:

Light Cavalry: light melee cavalry, good against light ranged infantry
Knight: expensive heavy melee cavalry, good against most other units, high HP
Cavalry Archer: quick ranged cavalry, good against other cavalry

Instead of Light Cavalry, the English have the Teulu, which performs the same tasks, except being a ranged unit. The Hobilar performs the tasks of the Cavalry Archer, except it does so in melee. This may seem like the wrong way round, but we did this mostly to give the English some uniqueness in their cavalry units. Not that it really matters, given that the unit you'll be using most with the English is the Archer anyway, as it will be so much better than those of other civs.


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Timurafghan on Thu 1 Mar 2012 - 11:12

For the Persian natives maybe 1 of these techs would be nice to have

Royal Road tech
increases villigar speed by 10 %

or Norooz (persian newyear celebrated at the start of spring)
increases food gathering rate in general / or you recieve food crates

Daneshgah-e Gondishapur (academy of gondishapur was the most important medical center of the known world during the 7th century ad and the intellectual center of the sasanid persian empire)

it could give a 5 % health to all units, or if you have priests an such for civs more efficient healing

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Thu 1 Mar 2012 - 12:18

"Royal Road Tech" sounds too generic, but we can definitely use the other two. We hadn't planned many Barbarian techs yet, and none for the Persians, so your suggestions are really useful. Thanks!


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Timurafghan on Thu 1 Mar 2012 - 13:19

No problem in the end i will hopefully also be enjoying this mod,
the tech was ment to be called Royal Road or Roads only i dont know how the word tech sneaked in there.
anyway i will look up what other barbarian civs there will be and if i might have some ideas for them aswell

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 1 Jul 2012 - 23:26

I noticed the School in the recent gameplay video, perhaps some more academic technologies could go into the barbarian trees since that sets a nice precedent?

For example,

Jutes: Saxon Legends ~> Your warriors remember the old tales of Warriors, Thegns, and Halls. +.5 speed, +15% attack for infantry, +5 pop. space per Barracks.

Franks: Louis' Evangelism ~> Following in the steps of Poppo and other courtiers of Louis the Pious, your Priests gain +50% HP and +1 speed.

Persians: Qanat ~> Ancient irrigation technologies stand the test of time, giving your farmers +20% HP and increasing farming speed by 10%.
al-Biruni's Rediscoveries ~> The great scholar's advances in geology, geometry, and ancient Indus building technology are published! +10% mining, +20% building HP.

Just to get the ball rolling again a little.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by AOE_Fan on Sun 1 Jul 2012 - 23:33

Well, as I told in Friday Updates, we have already decided and coded the techs for Prologue barbarian civs, so I'm sorry to say those ideas (even though they look good) are a bit useless by now...
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Synecdoche on Sun 1 Jul 2012 - 23:52

Oh yes, I'd forgotten. Well, Jutes and Franks still I suppose.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by PierceBel on Wed 25 Jul 2012 - 17:36

I'm very new here, and I just found out about this mod tonight. I am a German education major, medieval reenactor, and a student of history. One thing that I think you should do for the Jews, is give them powerful recruiters and healing bonuses through technologies. Throughout the middle ages, Jews were used as healers since they had a practical knowledge of the healing arts that was NOT hindered by the Catholic Church at the time. Slingers are a good idea, but I feel, historically speaking, that healers and scouts might be a better idea. Use the Jewish "barbarians" as a support faction, but make them valuable enough for everyone who uses them.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Wed 25 Jul 2012 - 17:49

Aren't Jewish slingers just a cliche based on the story of David and Goliath? If so they definitely should not be used. I like the idea of Jewish scouts and healers - it's more original as well
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Synecdoche on Wed 25 Jul 2012 - 18:21

Jewish healers already exist in K&B separately from the "Jew" barbarian settlements. As for the slinger, I'm not exactly sure why it was decided upon, it was before my time here and I've not heard about it. I'll take a look, but otherwise I'm sure Robert could enlighten why it's featured. I will tell you, however, that the Jew barbarian civ is based in maps that are around the area of ancient Judea and Israel, not on European medieval Jewish communities.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by PierceBel on Thu 26 Jul 2012 - 16:05

Also, give the Jewish faction banking/coin bonuses for technologies, since they were used throughout the middle ages as ready banks for private and national usage, thus creating the stereotype that Jews were greedy. Healing technologies/health bonuses would be a good idea.

Possible health Technologies:

"Cross-Cultural Learning" - Being members of both Islamic and Christian societies have taught healers better and faster healing methods. Improves Jewish Healers' rate of healing by X amount.
"Kosher Dieting" - Your infantry gain +X% health from eating better diets.
"Usury " - All coin collection through trade and banks increases by +X%.
"Military Funding" - The coin costs of soldiers decreases by -X%.

This can all just be used in the European maps later if you choose to have Jewish settlements elsewhere.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by PierceBel on Thu 26 Jul 2012 - 16:19

[quote="super7700"
UNITS:
- Helwyr (If it's possible, it could be a short ranged archer unit that has stealth and can gather only from huntables, or maybe it can just gather anything. If not, it could be a villager unit that is tougher and has a much better ranged attack and maybe can you have it gather from huntables faster or something like that?)
- Teulu (Mounted Retainers that are well armoured and if it is possible, are armed with javelins. Shorter range but more armour than normal horse archers)
- Welsh spearmen (needs an accurate name; faster but lighter armoured than normal spearmen, can use stealth)[/quote]


I want Hobelars, dangit! Give them a ranged, spear attack, similar to the Turmas in Age of Mythology. They have a speed bonus, and a minimum range, similar to skirmishers in Age of Empires II, but they lack hack armor, and are especially weak against heavy cavalry.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by super7700 on Thu 26 Jul 2012 - 16:30

peugeot407 wrote:Whatever the linguistics, the Helwyr is an unarmoured foot archer.

The English will have three cavalry units, like most other civs, two of which are UUs. The Knight is the generic unit, the Teulu and Hobilar are the unique units. Normally, the three cavalry units behave like this:

Light Cavalry: light melee cavalry, good against light ranged infantry
Knight: expensive heavy melee cavalry, good against most other units, high HP
Cavalry Archer: quick ranged cavalry, good against other cavalry

Instead of Light Cavalry, the English have the Teulu, which performs the same tasks, except being a ranged unit. The Hobilar performs the tasks of the Cavalry Archer, except it does so in melee. This may seem like the wrong way round, but we did this mostly to give the English some uniqueness in their cavalry units. Not that it really matters, given that the unit you'll be using most with the English is the Archer anyway, as it will be so much better than those of other civs.


peugeot407

It seems like there will be hobilars, but they won't be ranged units.
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Thu 26 Jul 2012 - 20:52

Indeed. Of the three units mentioned, the Helwyr will be a unit for the Briton subciv, and the Hobilar and Teulu will be UUs for the English civ.


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Pepp on Thu 26 Jul 2012 - 23:19

Also, give the Jewish faction banking/coin bonuses for technologies, since they were used throughout the middle ages as ready banks for private and national usage, thus creating the stereotype that Jews were greedy. Healing technologies/health bonuses would be a good idea.
Actually, no barbarians that I and Syn have done have "real" focus, so make the Jews has a focus will be lame for the other. Bank is already taken by a civ. Racist stereotype in threads that are not off topic is such a bad thing to do. And the last, making four techs with all in the same kind will be lame.

For the four techs you suggested, please bring in mind that our natives used this techs system: one for II, one for III, two for IV. One for IV has negative effect.

And Helwr will be used by Britons barbarian.

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by PierceBel on Wed 1 Aug 2012 - 4:50

I truly wasn't trying to bring in any racist ideals at all. The comment I made was simply to highlight WHERE such ideals have stemmed from. It is important to know that many anti-Semitic ideologies that still are around to this day started during the middle ages or even before. If my comment had offended anyone, I am truly sorry. Smile
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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by peugeot407 on Wed 1 Aug 2012 - 5:55

Well, the Jews are probably one of the most peculiar of our subcivs, as they represent Jews that actually remained in the Holy Land, while Jews that had participated in the diaspora are of course much more notorious. However, there were still a lot of Jews in the Levant, and they played a not insignificant role during the Crusades...


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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by The Dude on Wed 1 Aug 2012 - 11:03

Racist stereotype in threads that are not off topic is such a bad thing to do
Pepp, it's not a stereotype, historically a lot of Jews where bankers.

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Re: Suggestions (Barbarian techs)

Post by Nero on Wed 1 Aug 2012 - 19:14

Frankly though, Jews are a bit stingy especially when it comes to money, a kinda of true stereotype there.
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